[ModLib] Comments on this please: Aristotle's Politics 228.1

Bill Hornick willthemad at aol.com
Mon Dec 2 18:43:10 EST 2013


Here is the real conundrum: How do we know which batch of DJs was applied first?  The ones already printed on the inverse and waiting for a cover printing to be applied or new inverse printings along with the new DJ cover?  This situation is not all that rare.  There are several stated first editions that have DJs with the inverse title totals within a very few numbers, e.g., Two Years Before the Mast with 304 and 306 titles.  We usually know how many first editions were printed but we rarely know, if we know at all, how many dust jackets were printed, especially ML's two-sided dust jackets.

The problem can be addressed with the notations used by other collectors, namely First Edition book, first state, in a First Edition dust jacket, second state. Since ML collectors use Mr. Toledano's numbering system such as 88.1, 88.2, etc. for the addition or deletion of a biography, index, introduction, bibliography, that is how second and additional states are noted.  ML collectors have no similar numbering system for the dust jackets; subsequent dust jackets are usually just termed "mismatches" which means that any such occurrence was an active, intentional change following the loss of the original dust jacket.

We do need to be consistent in our terminology and application of criteria but we should also remember that we should be enjoying our hobby, pastime or passion.
There are some things that no one can know for sure; that's why there's a Heisenberg Principle.




-----Original Message-----
From: Scot Kamins <kamins at modernlib.com>
To: For collectors of Modern Library books <modlib at thuban.owu.edu>
Sent: Mon, Dec 2, 2013 4:21 pm
Subject: Re: [ModLib] Comments on this please: Aristotle's Politics  228.1


Thinking more on this, it all depends on how we define a first. If it's the first batch that left the factory, then both 284 and 291 could be considered firsts -- perhaps with a premium for the 284. This assumes that the first batch had some 291s in it. I don't know if there's a way to ascertain this for certain, except that the paucity (so far a total of 1) of reports of 284s would argue for 284/291 mixed first shipped batch.


Another argument could be made that a first is one where the first batch left the factory AND whose parts were all printed at the same time—which would relegate 284 to the status of anomaly. This thinking would throw everything into turmoil because of all the book blocks that were printed and sitting in sheets, waiting for their bindings to be made. I don't like this one much.




On Dec 1, 2013, at 1:57 PM, John Peterson wrote:





My one and only copy of On War (not FMLGE) has 284 titles on the DJ inverse, yet mentions 299 titles on the other side (rear flap).  My stated FMLE Aristotle has 291 titles on the inverse.  So I am of divided sentiments in the issue.
 
John Peterson

 

From: jwol
Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2013 3:14 PM
To: 'For collectors of Modern Library books'
Subject: Re: [ModLib] Comments on this please: Aristotle's Politics 228.1

 

I recall Gordon, I believe, once stating there is only one first in a discussion of this matter some years ago.  That is the philosophy I adhered to while hunting books; however, I then stumbled upon a copy of G22, On War by Clausewitz with 284 titles on the inverse.  The “official” first edition was to have 292 titles on the inverse.  My find would have dated the jacket to a full year before the “official” first.  Then, I found a second copy with the same pointers.  Subsequent discussion on this board speculated the front and back of the jackets were printed separately and a box of old jackets were discovered at a later date and used.  While the ML would not want to use an older jacket with newer offerings excluded, it was during the war years and paper scarcity may have been an issue.  Note that both the Aristotle’s Politics and On War had 284 titles referred to as the issue.  Also, I believe the inside of the rear flap had a later list of titles, but I would need to research that if anyone cares.
 
How many of the collectors have an Aristotle with 284 on the first.    How many have an On War with 284 besides me and the individual I sold a copy to?
 
I am on the fence  on this one, Scott.
 
John
 

From: modlib-bounces at thuban.owu.edu [mailto:modlib-bounces at thuban.owu.edu] On Behalf Of Scot Kamins
Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2013 2:59 PM
To: Gordon Barriick Neavill; For collectors of Modern Library books
Subject: Re: [ModLib] Comments on this please: Aristotle's Politics 228.1

 
So it would seem that the absolutely TRUE first DJs of wrapped Politics carry a 284 title list. It's quite possible, I suppose, that some books with the more up-to-daate 291 titles left the factory at the same time as the 284 copies, and an argument could be made that they also should be called firsts.  But Hard Truth must be declared in this matter, lest there be a schism among collectors.

 

[:: Donning ModernLib.com Senior Editor's Mitre and speaking ex cathedra ::] The One True First of Aristotle's Politics carries the number 284. So the BookNotes will proclaim.

 

But collectors who insist that their copies of 291 are to be called Firsts are not to be held in anathema by the faithful. By the same token, 291'ers should refrain from TPing the home of V. Civiletti who started this mess in the first place.

 

Happy Holidays, kids.

 

 

On Nov 28, 2013, at 1:08 PM, Gordon Barrick Neavill wrote:






The most reliable way of establishing the publication date of ML (and other) books is through the listings in Publishers Weekly's "Weekly Record" of newly published books. PW is the trade journal of the American publishing industry, and publishers sent copies (not just announcements) of newly published books for listing.  Aristotle's Politics is listed in the "Weekly Record" of the issue dated March 13, 1943, so we can reliably conclude that it was published in March 1943.

 

Chad's suggestion of why a spring 1943 publication could have a fall 1942 list inside the jacket seems convincing to me.  Printing both sides of jackets required separate runs through the press, and since the inside of the jackets for a given season were identical, it makes sense that the ML printed large quantities of the inside of the jacket first, and subsequently printed the outsides for new titles that were being added to the series and for backlist titles that were being reprinted in a given season.  I must admit that I'd never thought about this before -- thanks Chad!  In the case of Aristotle's Politics, the ML list inside the jacket is printed in black, and the outside is printed in medium gray and deep red. What surprises me is that using leftover jackets with lists  from the previous season inside for jackets printed the following season didn't happen more often.  My guess is that Cerf and Klopfer deliberately tried to avoid using jackets with outdated lists -- the lists were included to tempt customers to buy more ML books, and it would be bad business to frustrate repeat customers by listing titles that were no longer available.

 

Barry



From: "Bill Hornick" <willthemad at aol.com>
To: modlib at thuban.owu.edu
Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2013 1:41:56 PM
Subject: Re: [ModLib] Comments on this please: Aristotle's Politics  228.1

It seems quite logical to think that there were occasions when the number of first-edition books printed did not exactly match the number of dust jackets printed.

If additional jackets were needed, the inverse of the jacket could have carried an updated list of titles.  The book itself is still a first edition, first state; if the additional jackets carried a different number of titles, the dust jacket is still a first edition but now a second state.  Books and jackets are separate entities.  A second or later state dust jacket does not change the fact that the book is a first edition, first state.  Many collectors think of second or later state dust jackets as "dust jacket mismatches" but, in reality, they could have been the true original joining of the book and dust jacket.  Mr. Toledano recognized this possibility when he used the rubric that first editions could have dust jacket title totals within three numbers but exact first numbers carried a premium.

-----Original Message-----
From: Scot Kamins <kamins at modernlib.com>
To: For collectors of Modern Library books <modlib at thuban.owu.edu>
Sent: Thu, Nov 28, 2013 11:21 am
Subject: [ModLib] Comments on this please: Aristotle's Politics 228.1

Looks to me like Vincent is right. What do others think? Are there objections?

 

Begin forwarded message:

 

From: Vincent Civiletti <vciviletti at verizon.net>

Date: November 27, 2013 5:47:12 PM PST

To: Scot Kamins <kamins at ModernLib.com>

Subject: Aristotle's Politics 228.1

 

Scot,

Aristotle's Politics  228.1

First inverse DJ number:     291

I have a First Edition that has a list that dates it to Spring 1943, but the cover  is from Fall 1942 with 284 titles. Does this mean that the true First should have 284 DJ?

V. Civiletti

 


 


Scot Kamins

.......................

Many people are alive only because it's illegal to shoot them.

 

 

 


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Scot Kamins

.....................

 All things that are of a nature to arise are of a nature to pass away. --Kondanna

 

 





 




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Scot Kamins
...................
Our entire much-praised technological progress, and civilization generally, could be compared to an axe in the hand of a pathological criminal. -- Albert Einstein




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